| A lot of complaints people have about anime simply could be addressed by saying its literally just made for an entirely different culture. Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style Why do characters like to inner monologue a lot in anime? - Because Japanese storytelling Why do anime characters make a lot of weird sound effects? - Because that's how Japanese voice acting is done Why are they making too much isekai? - Because otakus like it Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language. Different countries have different opinions on what they perceive as good and bad. It's kind of the reason why every Bollywood movie has to have an unnecessary dance number. Idk, what do u guys think? |
| Yes, i 1000% agree with this, as anime is a Japanese cultural entertainment product, it reflects Japanese sensibilities, literary styles and visual aesthetics. |
| Yep, pretty much this. Although creators are trying to make anime a little more appealing to the West and some of their sensibilities, since they do know there's a large audience for it, but mostly the reason anime is so popular is due to it being written and created by the Japanese and their style. If you want certain things that are more "American" or Western style, then watching American cartoons/animations or animation from outside of Japan but more in Western countries might be up your alley. Many people do both, they watch anime and Western animation. But it's not healthy to try to change any of these styles to fit your preference. |
| Yeah wholly agreed. It's the fact that anime is a japanese product mainly meant for the japanese market. |
| Y=Those people lowkey are extremely stupid |
Sofia Vergara is the absolute prettiest living being since the first apparition of any living entity on this earth and space. |
| Not anymore, the foreign market sales already surpassed 50% of the total some years ago, and the industry targets the foreign audience accordingly. |
| true but i think only newbies think like that. anyone with a decent brain who has watched a few dozen anime can figure out its targeted for japanese mainly |
 The end of an era. Thank you Wit, Mappa and Isayama. Feeling half happy, half sad. Kawaii waifus and precious best girls <3333 |
krautnelson said: that doesn't matter. exposition dumps are bad, and good anime and manga manages to avoid them. People are such apologists regarding this point, yet some of the most powerful scenes I've watched were done with minimal dialogue. Exposition dumps are not inherently a Japanese thing. That's just a stereotype. |
 ♪Strong from the inside, you're still my lifeline! I feel you wherever you are!♪ |
| I agree with the title, but I'm not so sure about almost everything else in the post. "Because that's just how it is" is not a satisfying or interesting response to criticism, whether it's fair or not. It's also prone to covering up actual problems and killing discussion. Which would ultimately be harmful for the anime industry, as they would not feel the need to explore new styles or improve. Also, you're demonstrating your own "bias" by calling Bollywood dance numbers "unnecessary." I read that those are absolutely necessary in India to get butts into seats in theaters, otherwise they wouldn't put those numbers in. |
| Does it matter? Anime is an epic fail. It does not matter who anime is made for. Anime is such an epic fail that it does not matter if it was made for the Japanese. |
| One of the many reasons why I hate new people trying to Westernize anime. |
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| This explains why these tropes are common, but common doesn't mean 100% of the times. There are so many different kinds of anime out there that someone can still be a fan of Japanese animation even while complaining about these tropes. I'll always be in favor of anime doing the things that only anime can do. Sometimes I like these things (e.g. inner monologues), some other times I don't (e.g. most Japanese comedy). |
| There is anime which isn't sloppy Isekai which does show don't tell and isn't full of cringe dialogue. |
Sometimes it takes a real man to be best girl. Gilgamesh is also chad.   |
Runasius said: Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style A lot of anime are actually great at "show, dont tell" what are you talking about? Runasius said: Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language. This is also untrue Most english dubs, sorry to say, suck becase A) They're badly written B) The voice acting is shitty If the reason was "the dialogue doesn't translate well into another language" then how is it that when there's good writing and a good VA cast involved we get masterpiece dubs like Fullmetal Alchemist and Black Lagoon? How is it italian dubs don't have the same problem? |
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Reply to krautnelson
Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style
that doesn't matter. exposition dumps are bad, and good anime and manga manages to avoid them.
also, people treat "show, don't tell" as a be-all-end-all to story telling, and while it is effective, it's much better to imply things through subtext, because ultimately, a lengthy flashback is also just an exposition dump.
Why do characters like to inner monologue a lot in anime? - Because Japanese storytelling
that is more because most anime is adapted from light novels and manga. light novels especially are almost always written from first person perspective, so you end up with a lot of inner monologue, which is often crucial for the story and character development.
original anime features significantly less inner monologue.
Why do anime characters make a lot of weird sound effects? - Because that's how Japanese voice acting is done
yeah, but why is it done that way? because limited animation requires the VA to emphasize emotions more.
Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language.
it's not the translation directly but having to match the English dialogue to the animation, which requires failry liberal translations and a lot of awkward pausing, throwing off the timing and making the dialogue sound unnatural.
like, I get your point that anime is made primarily made for a Japanese audience - although there has clearly been a shift in the last ten years - but that doesn't make peoples' criticism of subpar writing choices, undercooked characters and overdone tropes and themes less valid. and there is clearly an overlap in what the Japanese audience thinks are good stories when compared to the West, so this whole idea of different perceptions of good and bad writing doesn't hold up.
krautnelson said: it's much better to imply things through subtext, because ultimately, a lengthy flashback is also just an exposition dump. "show, don't tell" literally refers to "showing/implying thru subtext", showing an entire flashback scene is just telling while seeing the character's memories of the event |
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Runasius said: Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" ...is it? Runasius said: Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language. Then why is English the only one that sucks? I mean, there's literally a person getting paid to make to translate the dialogue in a good way. |
Reply to krautnelson
Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style
that doesn't matter. exposition dumps are bad, and good anime and manga manages to avoid them.
also, people treat "show, don't tell" as a be-all-end-all to story telling, and while it is effective, it's much better to imply things through subtext, because ultimately, a lengthy flashback is also just an exposition dump.
Why do characters like to inner monologue a lot in anime? - Because Japanese storytelling
that is more because most anime is adapted from light novels and manga. light novels especially are almost always written from first person perspective, so you end up with a lot of inner monologue, which is often crucial for the story and character development.
original anime features significantly less inner monologue.
Why do anime characters make a lot of weird sound effects? - Because that's how Japanese voice acting is done
yeah, but why is it done that way? because limited animation requires the VA to emphasize emotions more.
Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language.
it's not the translation directly but having to match the English dialogue to the animation, which requires failry liberal translations and a lot of awkward pausing, throwing off the timing and making the dialogue sound unnatural.
like, I get your point that anime is made primarily made for a Japanese audience - although there has clearly been a shift in the last ten years - but that doesn't make peoples' criticism of subpar writing choices, undercooked characters and overdone tropes and themes less valid. and there is clearly an overlap in what the Japanese audience thinks are good stories when compared to the West, so this whole idea of different perceptions of good and bad writing doesn't hold up.
krautnelson said: it's not the translation directly but having to match the English dialogue to the animation, which requires failry liberal translations and a lot of awkward pausing, throwing off the timing and making the dialogue sound unnatural. This always felt like a self-inflicted penalty for me. The Japanese just don't care about lip-sync at all, so I don't know why the Americans do. |
Reply to DigiCat
krautnelson said:
it's much better to imply things through subtext, because ultimately, a lengthy flashback is also just an exposition dump.
it's much better to imply things through subtext, because ultimately, a lengthy flashback is also just an exposition dump.
"show, don't tell" literally refers to "showing/implying thru subtext", showing an entire flashback scene is just telling while seeing the character's memories of the event
| @DigiCat I always interpreted "show, don't tell" as meaning "Everything that is told must be also be deducible from what it is shown". An easy example is that if we're told that "The world in is chaos", yet most scenes we're shown is of the world being normal, then we wouldn't be able to conclude that the world was in chaos just from them (If something, we would conclude the opposite). That's how failing at "show, don't tell" looks like. Jujutsu Kaisen does that a lot by having such a convoluted power-system that GeGe often has to write an entire page explaining how the newest thing done doesn't break the entire thing despite the fact that it looks like it does. I would say that this is the anime equivalent of "ludo-narrative dissonance". If you're good at it, however, then you start to notice that a lot of dialogue becomes redundant or unnecessary, so you feel that you can remove it, and that allows you to either put more stuff or pace your work better. There's a reason it's so difficult to find anime that only fail at one specific thing, often an anime that fails at one thing also fails at another five. |
Runasius said: Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style I kind of get that, but can we also not think that this is often bad writing? I am not so certain to use culture as an excuse like this. Though truthfully the distinction between show and tell is arbitrary; take Se7en for example, where the officer described how he was forced into kill the victim of Lust, or Conquest's speech in the latest episode of Invincible. Yes, these characters are telling the audience something, but it is as if nothing is being shown or heard. The detective's quivering testimony to Jeffrey Dean Morgan cold delivery of Conquest's monologue are showing, because they are not just saying words on a screen, but delivering them physically. "Show, don't tell" is functionally then a criticism when a show does not do tell well. I try to be understanding of the cultural context, but I am not a relativist to the extent I would think it beyond criticism. Can it not be that many people who write manga or make anime are not particular masterful at this? What is wrong with that stance? What is wrong with criticizing something even if it is made for an entirely different culture? Does Miyazaki's criticism of Disney not hold weight because he is a 84 year old Japanese man? I think his criticism holds weight precisely because he is an outsider, and more importantly both an artist and a pioneer in animation. Then, it is only fair to say that anime is as free to criticism as western works are, even if these are both relatively broadstrokes. |
| Auroraloose's Aurorasimp “Like poking a strange horny animal with a stick” -Fleurbleue the incredibly beautiful and sadistic Québécois |
| Literally all of this (other than the isekai part) is wrong lol. |
| I would like to know where you obtained all this knowledge about what Japan likes and hopefully it is not the AI chat on Google or Wikipedia But... "Why is anime bad at show not tell-" It ISN'T.. the truly good anime are incredibly good at showing fascinating things, could be you're not watching good anime " " inner monologue? It has to do with first person vs third person storytelling, is universal not just Japanese. Inner monologues are 1st person perspective " " weird sound effects.. Just to entertain people " " too much isekai? Because CAPITALISM. It's CHEAP to source, CHEAP to make, and they know their global audience has no taste " " English dub so cringe? - Elitists. ALL ANIME IS DUBBED. A lot of English dubs are better than Japanese dubs, but elitists want to pretend they're Japanese so they refuse to listen to them. |
| All these questions are essentially, "Why does this country have a different culture?" |
"Wonder is always difficult until you forgive whoever destroyed your love of surprises" — Edmond Manning  |
Reply to thewiru
| @thewiru Possible, at least that would explain the criticism of anime having become more censored and sanitized over the years. In that case it's funny how it's usually the Anglosphere scapegoat who's falsely blamed for being responsible for that development. |
| Your main point is correct but a lot of these specific claims like "anime is bad at show don't tell" are not unique to Japan or just misleading |
| Training to become a real magical girl |
| Anime should be civilized as far as I'm concerned. Just like when we opened the Tokugawa Shogunate's isolationist tendencies to free trade in 19th century. About time you got out of iron age homie |
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| While we are at it, I'll also doubt the "inner monologues" part. It's more of a LN and VN thing. In fact, when I was reading Saya no Uta I was enamored by those and associated them to be more of a "literature thing". I loved reading about what the characters were thinking, how they were feeling, etc. Anime usually cuts all that on adaptation. |
| Solo Leveling is definitely not made for the Japanese audience... |
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| Anime is not made for Japanese people. Anime is made to generate profits for the elites, like everything else. Additionally, anime is just social engineering. It is designed to fool people into thinking NTHE won't happen. |
| I think anime is largely loved globally for the Japanese influences it often has. I think shounen caters to males. Seinen men josei women and shoujo girls. The fact that anime is so mainstream now shows its broad appeal. This myth of the "wider audience" "modern audience" and "global audience" is just corporatized goyslop most people despise. |
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| Yes. Agreed. Many tourists want anime to be more Westernized, and have no respect for Japan or their culture. Anime is not for them. There are many types of tourists, but every tourist has one particular thing in common: They have no respect for anime, Japan, or their culture. |
| It's case by case thing. Some of it it's fair to say it's a quality issue. Others are truly stylistic choices that might be popular in Japan because of their culture. You can criticize style, but I believe the only time it's truly bad and not just an opinion is when it fails to achieve the creator's intention. "Show, don't tell" thing is an often overused criticism. Too much telling is a common beginner writer mistake, so experienced writers give them that tip. However, those beginner writers and some amateurs critics on American-based communities hear that, understand it as a maxim and think you can't "tell" at all. Different works, for different audiences, have a different ideal ratio of tell/show. But if an anime truly has a bad ratio of tell/show, then it's not just Japanese writing, it's a quality issue and fair criticism. I suspect the many complainers are thinking of popular shounen that tend to overdo telling. Those works are often the first long work of a manga or LN writer. Beginners make mistakes. That said, I don't think your average non-Japanese YA is that much better. Or maybe they are overdoing in the opposite direction nowadays which is also bad. Inner monologue is due to first-person narrative. It can be badly done, but it's mostly a personal preference. I also saw in American-based beginner writer communities a certain distaste for first-person narrative. If contemporary American pop-fiction (for lack of better term) works and those inspired by them are mostly third-person, it's no wonder that their audience find it weird to have inner monologues and even dislike it. Inner monologues aren't a Japanese thing, but lack of it might be a pop-fiction "westerner" thing. Personally, I really like first-person narrative and inner monologues. I can't relate to people that complain about them in general. I don't know exactly what they are talking about characters making a lot of weird sounds effects. I guess that they do it as a stylistic choice based on their language (from I've seen Japanese is full of onomatopeias and wordless sounds even in real conversations), their humor and/or their artistic influences. No one is obligated to like it, but I think it's achieving its goal and the target audience doesn't seem to mind it. English dub being bad has nothing to do with anime and Japanese culture. It's the fault of the dub companies that don't know how to do a good job. It's part of their job to make it sound as natural as the original. I wonder if the translation dub industry might be underdeveloped in America because so many of the world's mainstream works are English-language originals. |
Runasius said: It's probably actually the international otakus helping fuel it. A lot of isekai are being funded by Western streaming outlets. The pursuit of content for streaming platforms, is really why so many meh shows are being thrown out there. Plus it has less to do with wider audience support, and more the fact they are low risk, low cost productions.Why are they making too much isekai? - Because otakus like it Runasius said: I don't even see this complaint often though lol. Even then, anime VAs do exaggerate their acting compared to other forms of Japanese media, at least the limited amount I have seen. I mean that is true for the West as well, cartoon VAs don't act like they do live action. Nippon isn't some exotic place that only does this. Why do anime characters make a lot of weird sound effects? - Because that's how Japanese voice acting is done Runasius said: Well I am not actually educated enough on this to even accept your assertion (they do this in Japanese novels, dramas, games always?), regardless, just because something is cultural doesn't make it good. I don't care that it's Japanese (I really don't give a shit lol), exposition can be detrimental to pacing, immersion etc. Just because something is another culture doesn't change that fact. Plenty of anime are great at actually doing show don't tell too, so just saying Japan can't write isn't really a defense of it. The reality is the reason anime does a lot of show don't tell, is they are mainly manga adaptions, largely aimed for teens. YA over here is also is guilty of this too. Also I don't think always showing versus telling is the right decision. It's very context dependent.Why is anime so bad at "show, don't tell?" - Because that's the typical Japanese writing style Runasius said: Same situation as above. Why do characters like to inner monologue a lot in anime? - Because Japanese storytelling Runasius said: Why is the English dub so cringe? - Because Japanese dialogue doesn't translate well into another language. Runasius said: You are a weeb who gets offended over the mildest things. I also would like some citations/examples that support your claims lol. Idk, what do u guys think? Your point doesn't even make sense. Japanese dialogue doesn't translate into other languages? No shit. It's a different language group. The thing is, this doesn't invalidate dubs lol. It would invalidate dubs and subs. Unless you know Japanese, you are getting an inferior product. Literally the only thing that would matter to non Japanese speakers, is the actual tone of voice, expression cause no matter what you are getting a translation. I just often find the Japanese VAs better at the tone/inflection I want. This isn't always the case though. Even as someone who primarily watches subbed, there are plenty of good dubs. Even for shows I watch in subbed, I was pretty impressed with the dub for Chainsaw Man. It was a perfect reflection of the Japanese VAs and I thought that voice direction was a perfect representation of how I read the manga. At. the very least, I am conscious of the fact subtitles are someone interpretation of the Japanese dialogue, which is pretty much what dubs are too. ForgotEyeWasHere said: Anime =/= Japan lol. Tons of people in Japan hate otaku culture. And yeah, you don't have to bow down before Japanese greatness to enjoy their pop culture. I mean I enjoy plenty of American pop culture and I have tons of problems with that country, especially of late. Only this overly sensitive xenophobic community, would actually argue, that if you don't like exposition it's because you don't respect Japanese culture. I would love to see that applied in other spheres, where foreign culture is consumed lol. You don't like buff action hero movies? You hate America! There are many types of tourists, but every tourist has one particular thing in common: They have no respect for anime, Japan, or their culture. I may be a "tourist" however, at least I am not a weeb pathetically self deprecating myself, for some culture that isn't mine. OP and you are up here with some of the most annoying posters on this site. We don't need to be weebs to enjoy anime. |
BilboBaggins365Mar 15, 7:18 PM
| Just a heads up guys, these are the criticisms that other people seem to have about anime, not problems that I have with the medium. |
| @NS2D I mean yeah it's context dependent. Sometimes you need exposition, sometimes it's unnatural and wastes time. Even in that case, you need to weave it into the story, so that it makes sense. Edit: Having the narrator explain powers every 20 secs in the Chimera Ant arc wasn't necessary, for some of the fights in JoJo you kinda need it. |
| not just the dialogue, english dub is cringe because the tone of their voice, the over-the-top delivery, the whole thing doesn't sound good. i didn't mind it with death note though, and baccano's dub is spectacular. |
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| @NS2D Yeah I pretty much don't disagree. |
Reply to Sheol01
@DigiCat Which hasn't been true since the 2000's. Sounds like an Elitist argument for sure.
| @Sheol01 Agree to disagree i guess I also don't see what's elitist about saying dubs can be great when well written and with good voice acting, the latter of which there's definitely no shortage of in the US as proven by the many great performances in US cartoons (even though i think the writing department has suffered there too in recent years) so it baffles me why anime and other foreigh cartoon dubs can't have the same consistent good/great quality voice acting |
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| @NS2D I mean yeah, books are a different format too. The mediums are going to impact whether having exposition is a good idea or not. I know some Tolkien fans don't like how the films trimmed down stuff, and while I am sympathetic I also understand why. I mean monologuing again, it's context dependent, this stuff isn't inherently good or bad. I wouldn't take anyone seriously if they said that you should never have exposition or monologues in storytelling. I mean some of the most famous monologues are in Shakespeare lol. Those are some very foundational pieces of literature for wider Anglo culture. |
BilboBaggins365 said: Anime =/= Japan lol. Tons of people in Japan hate otaku culture. And yeah, you don't have to bow down before Japanese greatness to enjoy their pop culture. I mean I enjoy plenty of American pop culture and I have tons of problems with that country, especially of late. Only this overly sensitive xenophobic community, would actually argue, that if you don't like exposition it's because you don't respect Japanese culture. I would love to see that applied in other spheres, where foreign culture is consumed lol. You don't like buff action hero movies? You hate America! I may be a "tourist" however, at least I am not a weeb pathetically self deprecating myself, for some culture that isn't mine. OP and you are up here with some of the most annoying posters on this site. We don't need to be weebs to enjoy anime. As someone of Asian descent, it is hilariously hypocritical to see posters like the user you're replying to accuse critics of being "tourists" to their theme park fantasy world Japan. Especially considering that a good deal of the continent has very justified animosity towards Japan due to their colonial history, which they still promote in a lot of their media. |
♪Strong from the inside, you're still my lifeline! I feel you wherever you are!♪ |
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